Okay, I know I'm heading into troubled water here, but I've had CNN on non stop for days now and I can think of little else than the Israel/Lebanon conflict. Seriously, I really need to turn off the tube, but Polly is painting her entire first floor this weekend and I need the company. At this point I can lip sink Headline News, and have come to the conclusion that we are a nation of freaks, who grow ever more freakier for the chance to see our obese selves on CNN. I'm never eating again. Celery and Diet Coke for life, I tell you.
Anyhoo, I digress. I began squarely on Israel's side. I did. Hezbollah should have never crossed the line and kidnapped the two Israeli soldiers. Stupid decision. But then Israel starts launching attacks left and right, killing innocent civilians and blowing up the infrastructure of a poor country that has been struggling to rebuild after its last civil war. Hezbollah exists within Lebanon, no doubt, but it is NOT Lebanon. The KKK is not America. Everyone involved and not involved agrees that Lebanon's infant government is impotent in ridding the country of Hezbollah. It also seems all are in agreement that Syria and Iran are to blame. Then why in the hell is Israel punishing innocent citizens and demanding the ultimate sacrifice for another's crimes? Don't bother whining to me about 9/11 and Afghanistan. Two victimized soldiers by Hezbollah is not equal to 3,000 murdered by the Taliban. Yes, I know that Hezbollah has caused Israeli fatalities in all of this, but not nearly as many, and only after Israel started firing at will. To me, it looks like Israel was just itching for a reason to bomb their neighbor.
It will end one of two ways. Diplomatically, with a prisoner exchange. Not likely. Or Israel will occupy Lebanon until it believes it has adequately bombed and disarmed Hezbollah (learn from our mistakes guys, not freaking likely) leaving Lebanon once again in tatters, and the rest of the Middle East itching to pay Israel and it best buddy, the U.S., a nice heaping dose of revenge. Oh! Along with two dead, but immensely precious Israeli soliders to boot.
What the hell does Connie Rice mean when she stated, "There is no point and nothing to be gained by a "premature cease fire?" Well, Con, how about the prevention of the extermination of innocent lives? Something you would think Israel -and the educated world- would well understand, let alone practice.
As troops amass to storm into Lebanon, I can only predict that it won't be much longer before the United States puts its big, fat mouth/thumb into this mess resulting making the whole thing worse. To that end, I say we give the country that yells "Uncle" first the entire state of Nevada. Or Nebraska. We don't need it. Surely we can find another place to dump our nation's nuclear waste or house our cattle. I know Nevada and Nebraska aren't the holy real estate that Israel or Lebanon are, but something's gotta give, and I don't see this ages old conflict ending unless someone moves. I know, I know, and I agree - they all deserve a homeland. So, lets give them a chunk of ours. "We" stole from the Indians, now's a chance to make amends by giving stolen property to a deserving war weary people. Israeli and Lebanese both qualify.
Any takers?
If your mind is too open, your brain will fall out. Warning: Names, identities, descriptions, and pictures have been changed and/or used to protect the innocent as well as the guilty. PollyPeoria should not be used or quoted as a source for your senior college thesis.
Saturday, July 22
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40 comments:
Polly: Lebanon is no victim here. They've complained for years about Syria's malign influence by way of Hezbollah. So what happens when Israel attacks Hezbollah targets? Lebanon whines about Israel instead of joining with them to wipe out Hezbollah, leaving this tiny little nation to defend itself against another of it's neighbors.
The only conclusion I can draw is that Christian and Muslim Lebanese would rather have Islamic terrorists among them than lift one finger to help the "Zionist Entity" to continue to live. Screw 'em.
I nominate Kansas. And I gotta say that this thing, IMHO, if it ever going to be settled, won't be settled on the battlefield but through diplomacy and the ballot box. In the meantime a lot of innocent human beings will be killed . And when I see Billy or anyone else talking about poor little Israel I wonder what planet they get their news from. Israel has one of the best Air Forces in the world and nukes.
Exactly. At what point do we admit defeat and conclude that there will never be peace in the Middle East? At least not until the second (or first, depending on your beliefs) coming. I think Christ would favor Nebraska over Kansas, but mere mortals relocating would probably find Nevada more to their liking. Although we'd have to ditch the casinos and prostitutes. Israel is really tiny. I don't think we'd miss Delaware...
I don't know. People thought for a long time there'd never be peace in Northern Ireland until one side wiped the other out, and certainly never cooperation among Northern Ireland, Ireland, and the U.K. And then suddenly, there (more or less) was. A critical mass was reached of people sick of the violence; mothers (in particular) started speaking out and forming cross-sectarian peace groups; everyone involved was trying to move ahead economically and there was a certain embarassment about being Europe's violent backwater that wasn't safe for foreign investment.
These weren't really outside peace-pushing forces, or a vast sea-change. It was ordinary citizens getting fed up, so fed up they stopped being afraid. I think that may be the best chance for peace in the Middle East, because from all I read, and everyone I talk to, ordinary citizens just want to live their lives.
Greetings from Neptune. The weather here is peaceful. Excellent example eyebrows!
Do I really have to point out the difference?
OK, here goes: There was a foundation of DEMOCRACY in Northern Ireland. There has been for centuries.
Hey Polly, just get your place painted and a rocket falls and wipes it out. hmmmm, Well what about the hundreds of rockets they are firing blindly into Israel and have been doing for sometime? I hope Israel goes all the way to Syria and meets up with our troops in Iraq. Sure inocent people are dying but that is because those cowards in Hezbollah hide with inocent people. They don't have the balls to simply have a military base. So Israel has to weed out the rats. These same people would gladly strap on a bomb and come to your birthday party without thinking twice. As for the U.S. ever leaving that region? When the oil runs dry, that region will turn back into the litter box it once was. Go Israel! Lebanon government and some of those people are not as inocent as you may think.
Billy - the next time you are in Ireland by all means stop by a pub or two and have a pint with the locals. You can congratulate them on their centuries of DEMOCRACY. And be sure and tell them that you are a Pundit.
Billy,
Go read a recent article in the Atlantic about the IRA and England, then come back and talk about democracy.
Get out of your easy FoxNews chair and join the truth, will you.
Billy,
I actually did my senior honors thesis on democratization of nations that previously hadn't been democratic (or had been but were emerging from a period of non-democracy). There's not a real strong correlation between internal strife and democracy or lack thereof.
I wasn't saying it would make the Middle East a political paradise; merely that if enough "ordinary people" get fed up, there will be a great deal of pressure - democratic or otherwise - to stop the violence.
Which is, after all, how non-democratic regimes typically fall anyway.
Polly,
Your comparison to the KKK is a bit weak. The KKK in America did not have over 10,000 rockets pointing to Washington DC. Also, keep in mind that you have three neighbors on the side of you that want to see you blown off the face of the earth. Lebanon is a stone throw away. Israel is bombing to protect their right to exist and move back the terrorist (that have every willingness to kill innocent people on the Israel side) from their borders. There are some people on this earth that will never know how NOT to kill. Hezbollah, and Middle East Radicals are just some of them.
Scott J,
You prove my point! With three bordering neighbors that want to see Israel "blown off the face of the earth" and Hezbollah, and Middle East Radicals never grasping "how NOT to kill" PEACE IN THE REGION AIN'T EVER GONNA HAPPEN. While I agree that Israel has the right to protect herself, their aim is pathetic. Too many civilians are dying for Hezbollah's crimes, and the entire world, minus the U.S. and Israel, seems to agree. There is no way that Lebanon's government can bootkick Hezbollah out- or even disarm them- without committing to another painful and lengthy civil war which it would likely lose. Israel can inflict many casaulities- with U.S. made bombs and fighter planes- but it will not be able to root out Hezbollah. They are expert guerilla fighters who know how to make the most out Lebanon's many underground tunnels and caves. A lesson Israel has forgotten, apparently.
It seems that "Middle East Radicals" want to plunge the world back into what many of us would consider the dark ages. The problem is that said radicals are not a minority, but rather common, with plenty of backing from Iran and Syria with money, training and weapons.
Eyebrows,
Unlike the Irish/British conflict these people actually HATE one another. Ireland resented British occupation in the North to be sure, but you would be hard pressed to find an Irish family that didn't have atleast a relative or two working and living in England. There isn't a big difference religion wise between the two either. The average Protestant and is often more Catholic than your average Catholic. The two need each other, and have more in common than not. Which simply isn't the case between Israel and the rest of the Middle East, or they are not anywhere close to admitting it if they are.
I think Israel deserves and needs a homeland. Hindsight being 20/20 the allies should have carved up Nevada instead of the Middle East after WWII. *Sigh* Yes, I know the jews have been there since forever, but how long, how much pain, how many will die before someone cries "Uncle!" and admits a jewish homeland just isn't going to work in area of world, regardless of how justified they are to live in said location?
Polly,
Didn't our community stand together and put pressure on our City Government to close down the Grandveiw Hotel? If Lebanon doesn't want to get bombed, they (the citizen's) won't let a terrorist group live inside their city, work in the government, open up businesses. Would you have allowed the Grandview to place people next door to your house by indimidation? By Threats? Do we not stand up and fight when Waste Management wants to expand thier business? These people are bloody terrorist? As the people of Iraq are going to have to stand up for themselves, so to will the people of the Middle East. Much like the Eastern Euorpean Countries did when they wanted Democracy.
Not to stray off point, but, if they can train a US Marine at Paris Island in 13 weeks, then what the hell are they doing for the Iraqi Army? How much longer will it take to get an army up and running? These people (the Iraqis) are getting much more training than our soldiers and some of our soldiers are starting their 4th tour of Iraq! As for the terrorists, they are launching missiles from neighborhoods and hiding there also. Lebanon needs to get it's shit together and get rid of these terrorists. Where is their army? They have been dependent on the $$$ from the US and UN for years so why change? You get what you pay for and Lebanon has paid for nothing.
Scott,
In the case of the Grandview Hotel, pressure was asserted by those who were willing to risk it. The hotel problem took DECADES to solve because the owner was a convicted arsonist and neighbors were afraid of him. The danger pales in consideration to Lebanon situation. This a war weary country.
Which by the way, Emtronics, makes your contention "Lebanon has paid for nothing" uneducated crap. Lebanon has paid a lot, in blood, and now it is doing so again. According to this morning's Wall Street Journal, 418 Lebanese civilians have died due to Israel's attacks. About 50 Israeli's have died due to Hezbollah. All of this started over the kidnappings of TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS. Hezbollah was wrong to take the soldiers, no doubt, but that event does not justify slaughtering 400 or so civilians.
Those blindly siding with Israel need to consider, Lebanon is still recovering from a long painful war. The U.S. very much wishes Lebanon's new, weak, infantile government to succeed. To take on Hezbollah, it would have to commit to another long civil war with an enemy with bountiful resources (Iran and Syria). Unless the United States is willing to arm Lebanon as well as we do Israel, we can't expect them to launch an attack against such a strong enemy. The government of Lebanon tolerates Hezbollah out of frustration, they don't endorse Hezbollah.
Polly,
Then whey doesn't the President of Lebanon denounce them?
I guess we disagree, but I do so respectfully. You know, we could have talked about this at my party that YOU were invited to, had some beer, and then mud wrestled over who was right...LOL
Israel started this by trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer, and now that all the china's shattered, it will be a long time putting it all back together....
Nope it was started when Hezbollah enter Israel and killed soliders and took 2 hostage. Israel who knows Hezbollah has been growing stronger and re-enforcing it's presence in Lebanon, with Lebanon doing nothing about it, finally has had enough. These terrosits hide with cilvians while Lebanon collected money from U.S. and ignored the problem over the years. It's a sad state of affairs but Lebanon did nothing, so this is the result. Where is Lebanaon's help in ejecting Hezbollah?
Lebanon doesn't have the resources to do squat against Hezbollah. We haven't armed them to the teeth like we have Israel.
Lebanon's government fears Hezbollah's militants and Syria and Iran, and would be stupid to do anything to upset them without resources to boot them to the curb.
Hezbollah started this mess, true, but the analogy of killing a fly with a sledgehammer is a good one, I think.
War is about winning, not playing nice.
Cause Polly's a girl name...
Ryan, Huh? I don't get it.
Mahkno, Really? Golly! Polly thought war was all about tea and toast. Don't you think starting a war over two kidnapped soilders is a bit of overkill? No pun intended.
I'm going back to playing with my Barbie dolls now.
Well our Idiot started a war over WMD's that did not exsist.
You asked why can't Polly be President?
Girls can't be president. :)
"Girls can't be president. :)"
Gawd. With Hilary slobering for the post, I sure hope you're right Ryan.
Scott J.,
Saturday's (July 28) Wall Street Journal has an interview with the President of Lebanon. He most certianly HAS denounced the Hezbollah kidnappings and bombings and has pleaded for assistance to get rid of said militants for years. He is all for an international military presence to cope with the problem, but states that unless and until the border with Syria is secured Hezbollah will thrive. So there. :)
BTW Scott, I would have loved to come to your party. Would have brought cold beer and warm mud, in fact. However, when I finally got the chance to check my blooger e-mail, the date had already past. Damn! I've been looking for a place to wear my new string bikini...
You really think this war is simply about 2 soldiers? Naive. Look eastward. This was is about Iran and its nukes.
Complaining that Israel is using excessive force is absurd. We are 19 days into this thing and Israel hasn't been decisive in its victory? Israel has perhaps the best trained military in the world and yet 19 days in there is no clear path to victory? If anything Israel should be using more force. Every day this goes on Hezbollah's threat and strength grow. Hezbollah and by extension Iran's growing strength are of paramount danger to not only Israel, but to Lebanon and the rest of the middle east.
You don't fight wars with one hand tied behind your back. You don't give your opponent time to recover and learn. Our experience in Iraq painfully illustrates this.
During WWII we had no problem at all targeting civilians. If any target was capable of aiding the enemy, it was destroyed several times over. The idea that we should identify enemy combatents and meet them on some imaginary list of a battlefield using only our smallest of knives is laughable and tragic.
Gosh Mahkno,
I wonder if those were innocent American or Jewish folks dying (20 CHILDREN this morning, killed by an Israeli strike) if you would be singing the same tune.
We did not TARGET civilians in WWII. Innocent civilians died, certainly, a horrible cost of war in much bigger conflict trying to end the systematic killing of 6 million Jews. However, we didn't TARGET civilians. Unless you are talking about our use of atomic bombs against Japan which most certainly did target everything in sight. Our justification for using said devices is still hot for debate, one too lengthy to go into here, but I will argue that our war with Japan and the timing of those bombings were part of a much bigger, more dangerous conflict. Had the U.S. invaded Japan thousands upon thousands of American lives would have been lost. Nonetheless, it still remains difficult to justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki. (sorry, I can't spell to save my life.)
Israel, even if it used more or all of its force is going to lose this conflict. Hezbollah doesn't wear uniforms, they are guerilla militants. If Hezbollah is left even slightly intact, the Arab world will see this as a victory. Moreover, with heavy civilian deaths in Lebanon mounting more hatred and the desire for revenge grows larger in the region. This conflict will be a great recruitment tool for Hezbollah.
This is not about Iran and it nukes. That is a concern for the U.S., no doubt. THIS particular conflict is about Iran and Syria and its desire to control this section of the muslim world, their hate for Israel, and they are supporting Hezbollah to do it.
The mistake was to arm Israel to the gills while giving Lebanon's weak and infant government (which we support, BTW) NADA to eject Hezbollah from its country. Moreover, even with all the talk of an international force coming in, said force will be used to patrol and secure the Lebanon/Israel border. Allowing the HUGE border between Syria and Lebanon unchecked and open for Hezbollah growth.
I want Israel to have a secure homeland. Their way of going about this time around is just assanine.
Polly polly polly polly,
If those had been American children, we would investigate why they were killed. Would that constitute justification for pulling back? NO. Would it constitute demanding a cease fire? NO. Does it constitute excessive force? NO. The guys who fired it missed. If they had hit their target like they should have, would we then call it excessive? Lol. Those kids are in a frickin war zone. Get the hell out of there or you may be killed. I understand some folks can’t move, that is the tragedy of war. But at the end of the day, Hezbollah must be defeated.
Did we target civilians in WWII. Absolutely we did on small and on a massive scale. You best read up, start with fire bombings and Dresden. There are also some excellent scholarly works of historians pouring over correspondence and recollections of the war. Mind you, I have no problem with our actions in WWII. Civilians needed to stay the heck out of the way. They certainly did. This is in stark contrast to pictures you see to today of crowds watching from 100 yards away while armed forces fight.
“If Hezbollah is left even slightly intact, the Arab world will see this as a victory.” You have that correct. Calling for restraint plays directly into Hezbollah’s arms. It is too late. The game is on and it must be played to its conclusion. If Israel backs down, it loses.
Nukes most certainly does play into the whole power game going on. It has been reported that Israel has already conveyed to Washington that a red line exists where it will have to act to attempt to deter Iran’s development of nukes. Ponder for a moment how events would unfold if Israel attacks Iranian nuclear sites. Iran has limited ability to project power conventionally (they are working on this tho) but they can project via their proxies; Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad (and arguably also, Syria). These proxies would almost certainly rise up, along with other possible nations like Syria to resume their war on Israel. As we have seen in the last 19 days, Iran has spent a great deal arming these groups. They are clearly well entrenched. Would it not be in Israel’s interest to preemptively counter this leverage that Iran has before it strikes their nuclear sites? It might arguably also improve Israel’s bargaining position if Iran no longer had these proxies.
To sit back, to wait and see what Iran might do, while it arms the proxies, preparing for a greater conflict, while developing and eventually deploying nuclear weapons is not in Israel’s best interest nor ours for that matter.
As to helping the Lebanese government… well yes there is a failure there on the part of our government. But like Israel’s incursion, it isn’t so clear and simple. Had we been more forth coming, war might have ensued all the same. It would essentially amount to a resumption of the Lebanese civil war.
Gee the PM of Lebanon thank Hezbollah for their support.
emtronics-
Huh? When did he say that? Read yesterday's WSJ. Hezbollah was born from Lebanon's conflict with the PLO. From what I read, it seems that Hezbollah could be defined as well trained modern day minute men. Hezbollah does have two seats in Lebanon's government, but the PM did not give his blessing to the kidnapping of the Isareli soldiers or the current fighting. The only quote I can find in which the PM comes close to thanking Hezbollah is when Syria tried to invade and Hezbollah was successful in getting SYRIA to retreat. Israel will retreat next, and then Hezbollah will nearly every Arab's hero.
Mahkno,
You and I actually agreed on quite a lot. I don't think Israel or the U.S. should turn a blind eye to Iran's development of nukes. However, using the excuse of two kidnap soldiers deploy troops back into Lebanon with the mission of disarming Hezbollah is what's naive, not Polly.
Israel will fail. There is no way to get rid of every last Hezbollah militant, and frankly Israel is strengthing its enemy by pissing off all of its arab neighbors. From the reports I've seen, in the eyes of Lebanon, Israel is the terrorist here. You can disagree with them, but it would be wise to admit that the average arab may well hold that PERCEPTION.
Keeping that perception in mind, do you believe the average American was more or less willing to rip Osama Bin Laden or any of his followers a new one if given the opportunity after 9/11?
Lebanon's government and army needs to be given what it is required to protect itself. Otherwise it is just fodder for any of its neighbors for a hostile takeover. There needs to be an international force that borders Syria- which is where both Iran and Syria are getting their resources through.
I want the Jews to have a homeland, and I'm generally supportive of Israel. This time though, they really messed up and made everything worse. Think they could have learned something from the woes of their best buds, eh?
I have started to wonder if there will be a moments peace in that region of the world unless someone relocates.
Seriously, would we miss one or even both of the Dakotas?
Hezbollah not fully supported by the local government, this is not true. These so called underground terrorists that that Lebanon does not support have set up miisile launchers in residential areas right next to homes. The attacks they have launched are coming from urban areas, they dress in kakis and button down shirts while they fire their weapons so as to be able to slip back in with civilians when they need to. Not only have the attacks been supported by the government they are supported by the people.
Hezbollah is NOT supported by the Lebanonese government. Numerous interviews with the PM prove that. I direct you to yesterday's WSJ as evidence. Hezbollah enjoys fear, but not support from the average Lebanonese citizen. Of course, with so many Arabs dying at the hands of Israel (yes, I know, Israelis are dying at the hands of Hezbollah, but not nearly as many) that is likely to change. Realizing that Hezbollah are civilians, dressed in civilian clothing, how do you propose Israel find and eliminate every last Hezbollah operative? Not frickin' likely.
Allowing a terrorist organization to launch missile attacks from within your country is support, pure and simple. The P.M. could give his silly statements standing next to a freaking portable missile launcher in a school playground and there would still be people that buy into his no support b*llsh*t. If the PM wants to keep his people safe then it is his responsibility to eliminate these terrorists from his country, his failure to do so and the fact that they are operating out of his country and attacking another country has put the average civilian at great risk. If our street gangs in detroit decided to begin lobbing missiles into Canada and we did nothing about it, citing our great fear of gangs as a defense for alowing the attacks would sound a bit silly and would not go over to well in Canada. Lebanon better learn how to keep its pesky little dogs on a leash lest it piss of it's neighbors and take a serious ass whipping.
Anonymous- HE CAN'T BOOTKICK HEZBOLLAH OUT, THEY HAVE NO FREAKIN' RESOURCES!!! Lebanon is a poor country with essentially no military, desparately trying to recover and rebuild from its last war. Pay attention will you! Lebanon - the official government - is WEAK. Dust in the wind weak. They have nothing to eliminate Hezbollah WITH, despite begging for it for years. Lebanon has been hurt by Hezbollah too, and is fodder for any neighbor who feels like expanding. Most recently Syria. Being powerless to do anything is a far cry from supporting Hezbollah.
Stop sleeping in class, will ya?
Bullsh*t. Even if this were true, which it is not, then I would argue that the government of Lebanon can no longer function as a government and must be taken over and run by another. They cannot protect their own people and they cannot prevent residents of their country from attacking other countries, they cannot be allowed to govern. They are a danger to themselves and others.
Anon,
Yeah. Great idea there, nifty swifty. Problem. We helped install the current government. Perhaps you have been living in a cave and missed hearing even the genius Bush that, "Israel, while protecting herself, must understand that the young government of Lebanon must succeed." What does that tell you? There is plenty of evidence of late where everyone involved (and not involved), actually anyone even mildly educated on the subject admits that Lebanon is impotent when it comes to Hezbollah. Check out yesterday's edition of the Wall Street Journal- specifically the front page article titled, "Why Israel is Losing in Lebanon", NPR, yesterday's New York Times. Last Saturday's WSJ included submissions from Lebanon's PM and minister of defense. We can remove Lebanon's current administration -which the US helped to install- and replace them with anyone you like (except Israel, of course). Unless you give your dream government the resources to protect itself, it too will be impotent against Hezbollah.
Now now, easy with the name calling. Glass houses and all that jazz. It seems to me that Israel has a duty and a right to protect its people, if the lebanese gubmt cannot control its own than what the hell is Israel supposed to do? I have not seen anything even mildly disturbing come out of this conflict, but keep in mind I would personally kill every man woman and child in the entire middle east before I would let them harm a hair on the head of one of my family.
p.s. what is with all the false posts and stories about the pictures ??
raoul duke,
Being the pseudo intellectual I am, I watched -well napped actually- the News Hour with Jim Leher yesterday.
One of their experts called "Hezbollah a political party with an army." I think that description is the best and most accurate yet.
If you think allowing a political party to be armed is unacceptable, remember, this is what we are essentially doing in Iraq. Shoring up one political party with training and weapons, with the hope that the former party -which was strong but cruel- won't be able to take over the country once again.
The problem is, that Hezbollah is a small, well desguised, moving target that cannot be removed without killing masses of innocent folks who are not able to get out of the way.
Pretend the Republican Party in this country did something horrid. Something so awful that it would, in your mind, justify and demand their demise. (Say the GOP kidnapped two Israeli soldiers for instance.) Imagine trying to disarm and destroy every member Republican Party in this country. Even if the GOP were a mob of ax murdering pedophiles as well as Israeli Solider kidnappers, would you be justified in slaughtering every member of the Democrat, Independent, Socialist, Temperance, Communist, Green, etc., party that stood in your path? How about all the kids that never even got a chance to vote?
The problem is that Israel is killing alot more innocent civilans than it is killing Hezbollah militants. In my mind, this is like killing a room full of innocent hostages in order to arrest or kill a single bank robber.
I don't think I called anyone names. If I did, I apologize. Polly is well aware that she lives in a cracked glass house.
Yeah, I post fake pics all the time. Got keep people off my scent and as an additional service I like to give my precious few readers and additonal thrill. I'm not downloading high art, just pics from google that anyone can get off the net.
However, all words and opinions -brillant or as stupid as they may be- are mine.
Kisses,
Polly
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